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Altamush Saeed is an animal and environmental law professor. He teaches Pakistan’s 1st Animal Law Advocacy Course and is Founding Managing Partner At Environmental and Animal Rights Consultants, Pakistan’s 1st dedicated Animal and Environmental law and policy firm. Altamush is known for his non-profit work on Interspecies Justice for which he has won multiple awards. He also co-founded the Charity Doings Foundation, a non-profit that aims to save all life, be it human, animal, or the environment in Pakistan. Amongst many other advisory roles he serves as a strategic academic advisor and advocate for Muslim Veganism and Environmentalism at Green Islam.

In Sentientist Conversations we talk about the most important questions: “what’s real?”, “who matters?” and “how can we make a better future?”

Sentientism answers those questions with “evidence, reason & compassion for all sentient beings.” In addition to the YouTube and Spotify above the audio is on our Podcast here on Apple & here on all the other platforms.

00:00 Clips!

01:11 Welcome

– Islam and non-human animals

– Animals as survivors/victims of natural disasters

03:00 Altamush’s Intro

– 3 masters degrees: animal, environmental and human rights law “I always see the three disciplines as together”

– Teaching law

– Founding and running a non-profit and a law firm

– Becoming a documentary film-maker

05:00 What’s Real?

– “I’ve had multiple identities”

– Growing up in Pakistan

– Doctor parents… a good education… privileges

– “Animals are kind of invisible”

– “this anthropocentric mindset… fuelled by the idea that you’re unable to see beyond your own needs… until they’re met at a proper scale… it’s hard for people to see beyond human beings… that’s the lived reality in Pakistan.”

– Pakistan as an Islamic nation “part of our constitution… we have laws on Islam… laws on animal rights in Islam… codified, however not implemented properly.”

– “Initially I didn’t see animals… that’s how I started my non-profit”

– “A cat came into my life… even though I physically rescued her she was the one who mentally rescued me… that’s the day when I started seeing animals for who they really are…”

– JW: Religious belief based on faith/revelation/authority or on evidence and reason?

– “It’s actually both of them… I do believe in the text… the Quran… taught about that from a very young age… we pray… community… good human rights stuff”

– “All Muslims are khalifa which is basically a ruler. But the actual word is steward… a sovereign who has responsibility for everything…”

– “That’s not normally how it’s read… you are the most superior being… everything has been made for you… you have divine permission to do anything including eating animals – that’s how we’re normally taught.”

– “I used reason… the most driving reasoning for me was the mercy of Allah… there are constant references that his mercy overpowers his anger”

– “…How can mercy be limited?… animals are mentioned in many ways in the scripture…”

– “Whenever you connect veganism and Islam people think that’s not possible because it does say… that you can eat them – however it never says that you actually have to…”

– “…there are some other principles of faith of empathy and mercy… you can extend those principles”

– “Islam is for the subjects who pray to god… however it’s also mentioned that animals pray to god as well in the Quran.. the sound that the frog makes is a prayer to god and he does that his whole life… Prophet Muhammad loved the frog for this reason”

– “The Quran also mentions that animals are a community… the Arabic word Ummah… those people or those beings for whom the religion was created and animals are referenced there.”

– Marine animals not mentioned because “when Islam came it was in the desert… the religion’s meaning will change with time”

– “Human rights are very strongly mentioned in religion… if you do anything that harms humans… that is 100% impermissible”

13:05 What and Who Matters?

–  JW: Varieties of religious worldview ranging from universal mercy and compassion to the risks of hierarchy, sexism, homophobia, harsh discriminations against outsiders & apostates

– “In the human ethics space it’s very, very clear… rights for human beings are mentioned explicitly… if you extend this concept of mercy… men and women are equal in the religion”

– “Not extending rights to women… does not fall under Islam for me… however the interpretations can be slightly different”

– The story behind the Hijab “to protect women from sunlight… that was the original idea… it has been reformed and changed into something entirely else… it was a choice for the women themselves… there was no binding required on either side – to wear one or not”

– The view of the Quran as unchangeable & perfect: “It’s both a good thing and a bad thing… if the interpreters… have not been exposed to these different live realities of what Islam says about animals – or just humans… it would be difficult for them… imams…”

– “There are differing opinions between them [imams] as well… there are some sects of the religion… the centrality is kind of not true any more… it’s changing and evolving… the book itself stays central”

17:00 Who Matters?

– Being close to questions of morality “even as a kid”

– At 14-16 years old, starting a football tournament to help address drug use issues “we basically shifted every single kid in our community from drugs to football”

– Setting up a human rights NGO

– “I started joining these protests about animal rights – that only happened because of my cat… she is my mentor and my non-human role model. She’s taught me more about animal rights than anybody”

– In Pakistan “animal are actually invisible – there is just some kind of a barrier – people just don’t see beyond humans”

– During COVID community animals that relied on leftovers were struggling for food “we started a campaign for them”

– The Pakistan floods in 2022 “I should go into the flood zone and rescue animals… farm animals particularly… and that we did”

– “This is my theory of life – it’s called inter-species justice… that human, animal and environmental rights are connected… whenever you interact with other beings they have their own inherent rights”

– “I personally believe every life form is sentient… even the earth is sentient… but, of course the earth does not have the ability to feel pain”

– “The ability to feel pain and suffer means you have the right to life”

– “They don’t feel pain. I think they still do feel something… [the earth is having some kind of experience]”

– “The Earth has had over five mass extinctions so far… I consider that as Earth’s own resetting mechanism… the Earth will do everything in its power to make sure that it survives… might also mean human extinction… uncontrolled carbon emissions… we’re basically attacking the Earth… it’s going to do everything in its power to save itself… a being that wants to stay alive is inherently sentient… but of course the ability to feel pain creates more rights”

– “The Earth has the ability to react… I’m just saying it’s not a conscious reaction”

– Difficult choices re: companion animals e.g. indoor cats, “captivity” and paternalism

– “The prophet was sent as a mercy to all mankind… humans, animals, djinns and all life that exists”

– “However, because of this normal, traditional anthropocentric way of how Islam is taught… that humans are at the top [below angels, the prophets, god]”

– “A khalifa… gods appointee on earth… the responsibilities of the khalifa go beyond humans – they go to animals and the environment”

– “Even if it’s a dog that’s going without food – I will be responsible for it”

– “It’s not just a ruler… every Muslim present on this planet is a khalifa.”

– “I interpreted that dominion thing to be false… the other beings do get their rights. It’s inherently in them. I don’t have to give them away. God gave them – they’re already born with it… my job is to make sure that they’re properly implemented. That’s Islam – and that’s how veganism becomes part of it.”

– “Other than consumption – it’s more about the way the animal is kept and the way it’s treated… halal and dhabīḥah and tayib regulations”

– “You have to make sure that the animal does not suffer… an injured animal cannot be sacrificed… an injury can be both physical and mental… has not suffered in its life”

– “You cannot slaughter an animal in front of another…”

– “People also think… ‘if you messed up you can just say the name of god then it just suddenly becomes halal’ – that is also not true”

– “Brazil is from where the most highest amount halal meat is supported… there is no centralised halal authority… the industry takes advantage of it”

– “I’ve never in my own life seen proper halal guidelines being followed”

– “The Tayib part… cleanliness… you have to give the animal a pure place… I don’t know how you can make slaughter clean… I just don’t get it”

– “Prohibit factory farming in the religion… must not cut the horns of animals or their tail or brand them… or put them in places where they’re confined and suffer”

– “I can say this with 100% certainty – factory farming as it exists today is impermissible in Islam”

– “Intention is very important in Islam… when you label something as ‘humane’ or when you argue you’re doing ‘animal welfare’ your intention is in the wrong place. What you’re actually doing is you’re making sure that humans can feel happy or less guilty…”

– “That’s intentionally not animal welfare – that’s where Islam doesn’t allow that”

– “The status of being non-intentional and saying something else makes you a hypocrite… the least dignified people in the religion”

– Religious slaughter: Eid al-Adha “The idea… was sacrificing oneself… a part of oneself… for the sake of Allah… god commanded the prophet Abrahim to sacrifice his own son for the love of god… he was actually about to do it… sacrificing a part of his own soul… that was the basic idea that you love something so much that giving it up is going to hurt you… sacrificing yourself”

– “The son was replaced by a sheep or a lamb… some kind of a farmed animal… that was misinterpreted into what we have right now… huge animal markets…”

– So people now sacrifice animals that mean nothing to them – undermining the point of “sacrifice” in the first place. A more appropriate (and equally horrific) analogue would be to sacrifice a loved companion animal

– “The pain part is inevitable – that makes the whole slaughter impermissible”

– JW: “That is the act of a sadistic god – is to ask someone to make that sacrifice”

– “The essence was sacrificing oneself. That is not happening any more… You just get an animal two days from the date of slaughter and just slaughter [them]. There is no connection… you don’t feel anything”

– “When you extend the mercy principle… I can help a student go to school… I can give poor people food… I can start a hospital… that’s going to actually mean something”

– JW: “A sacrifice that helps others… not a pointless sacrifice… a good sacrifice”

– “You just extend the mercy… that’s how I fit in the veganism”

41:52 A Better World?

– The interspecies justice framework “whenever you do anything you have to think about other lifeforms”

– Installing over 1400 clean water projects for both human and non-human animals and for vegetable gardens across Pakistan “we’re solving food security, we’re making sure the environmental footprint is zero… we’re removing animals from the food equation – that fixes everything… how interspecies justice is in reality”

– “Millions of animals and humans benefit already but our goal over the next couple of years is to make over 1600 of these vegetable gardens”

– “When humans bring in their children… the understanding that they’re getting… is that their children have the same needs as animals”

– Animals in disasters: droughts and floods “have zero part to play in disasters – they are 100% victims… unfortunately… there are no protections for animals… that’s true for the whole world except a few countries”

– “The US has laws on companion animal protection in disasters but that’s still anthropocentric because the humans don’t want to lose ‘their’ companion animals” – also in New Zealand, Indonesia

– The UN Sendai frameworks refer to animals as “livestock or property… their protections are almost always ignored”

– Creating a new field: “International Animal Disaster Law”

– “The way it exists right now it’s actually anti-animal disaster law… many countries have subsidies available for farmers… that they can let their animals die and they get money per head – that’s even worse”

– “[Animal] Agriculture is the cause of disaster… that’s why the floods happen in Pakistan… but nobody is willing make that connection… after disaster people have higher need for food… they rely again on those factory farming systems which again cause more disasters… so countries like mine can never leave that cycle”

– Crystal Heath Sentientism episode

– JW: Is there hope in the widespread public compassion for non-human animal disaster and war victims and survivors?

– Developing training courses with the Pakistan government for animal farmers re: protecting animals when disasters happen

– “Islam has rights of nature… the Earth is referred to as being in humankind’s trust… we are just trustees… if you violate that trust disasters will happen”

– How Pakistan’s animal agriculture is different from that in the UK/US/Europe and how the transition away from it will need to be different

– A plant-based Pakistan… “Of course I can imagine it – it’s a dream… you would have to borrow from religion as well…”

– A “Animal Health Act” that is motivated purely by maximising exports by reducing the risks to human health “I don’t think at the end of the day it’s about religion or culture – it’s just about money”

– “The solution would be something that helps the industries keep the money and shift to plant-based”

– Using climate change and human health reasons

– Government asking for sympathy for the animal agriculture industry because of the impacts of climate change – without mentioning how animal agriculture drives climate change

– “The impact is of course there – people are suffering – but there is zero mention of the environmental impact of agriculture… in the law… in government… it’s not taught”

– “When I tell people that 1/3 of those greenhouse gas emissions come from these food systems… they’re just blown away… that’s when they listen because it’s about their survival”

– “I’m trying to change that by teaching environmental law in addition to animal law at law schools in Pakistan… for the first time ever in the country”

– The role of education and Sentientist Education

– Working with the WWF in Pakistan on the environmental impacts of agriculture “I’m going to schools… at the end I’m going to give them plant-based food… work with their school cafes…”

– “I started with the animal ethics angle and then I go to the environment… animal law first and environmental law second… then together”

– “We need more animal rights lawyers [in Pakistan] – I am unfortunately the only one with an animal law masters”

– Developing a curriculum for Imams on animal and environmental rights in Islam (with ProVeg Pakistan) “educating them directly is going to amplify the message” – each will be able to reach thousands of people per week through sermons

– Training 8 Imams as a pilot exercise “starting with social justice… women’s rights… human rights… and then I’m going to jump into environmental and animal rights in Islam”

– Developing a plant-based curriculum for students in Pakistan with the New Roots Institute (see the Jesse Tandler episode)

– Needing space for conversations and critical thinking about big questions like “what’s real?”, “what matters?” and “how do we find a solution?”

– “If there is space for these questions I think change can come”

– JW: While Sentientism is a naturalistic worldview “There are so many different paths to compassion… Abrahamic religions… Dharmic religions… naturalistic… and we can all work together towards your idea of a genuine, universal, inter-species justice… mercy and compassion… even though we might have very different beliefs.”

– 18-19 January 2025: Pakistan’s first ever international animal and environmental rights conference “the audience will mostly be students… hopefully this will be an annual event”

– “Giving it to them and creating a movement – that’s what true leadership is”

01:04:48 Follow Altamush

– @AltamushSaeed
– Altamush on LinkedIn
– Altamush on Instagram

– @earcpakistan

– Charitydoings.org

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Thanks to Graham for the post-production and to Tarabella and Denise for helping to fund this episode via our Sentientism Patreon.