Find Heather’s Sentientist Conversation with me here on Youtube or here on the Sentientism podcast.

Heather is a scientist (zoology and biology), philosopher & a former zookeeper & animal welfare officer. She is now a researcher at the London School of Economics specialising in non-human animal sentience, welfare, & ethics.

In Sentientist Conversations we talk about the two most important questions: “what’s real?” & “what matters?” Sentientism is “evidence, reason & compassion for all sentient beings.” Watch on YouTube above or find the audio on our Podcast – subscribe on Apple here​​​​ & on the other platforms here.

We discuss:
0:00 Welcome

1:33 Heather Intro – biology to zookeeping to philosophy

• Volunteering, later working at zoos. Getting to know animals
• Studying zoology/biology
• Studying philosophy, shifting to PhD focus on measuring animal welfare
• “Cheetahs don’t really like to run”
• How do “natural behaviours” relate to animal welfare
• Trying to take the animal’s point of view
• The Foundations of Animal Sentience programme at LSE
• The power of interdisciplinary work

10:55 What’s real?

• Growing up in a fairly naturalistic household. Occasional church visits
• Being encouraged to question & explore
• Joining a church group for the community
• Balking at religious rules/restrictions
• Asking questions & not getting answers
• “Science just seemed like the best way of investigating the world”
• Scientists are flawed humans too
• There are many things we don’t know & some we may never understand
• We’re evolved creatures that have developed heuristics that have been useful to us for survival/procreation
• The dangers of a need for/expectation of perfection
• Dangers of over-confidence/dogma/motivated reasoning in science

21:54 What matters morally?

• Naturalism does involve giving up meaning, but we can create our own meaning
• Hedonist nihilism. What matters to me?
• Sitting between naturalising or eliminating morality, vs. moral realism
• Evolutionary basis of human consciousness, including empathy, fairness, co-operation (and not just in humans)
• “What matters is the subjective pleasure and pains we have in our lives”
• “Our wellbeing is an objective fact about the world”
• Empathy is caring about the wellbeing of others

31:42 Which entities matter? Moral scope

• “I’ve always loved animals”
• At 5 yrs “When I grow up I want to be a zookeeper”
• Finding it difficult to eat meat. Feeling disgust
• Saying “I’m vegetarian” to get out of cooking meat in a class, then realising “I could just do that” and going vegetarian at 12 yrs
• Supportive parents: “Now you need to learn to cook!” & being joined by a sister
• A friend was told “You can’t go vegetarian”
• The increasing acceptability of veg*nism in many cultures
• Veganism might not yet have reduced the scale of animal farming but it’s at least reduced the rate of growth
• Whether fast-growing economies can bypass the fossil fuel/factory farm path

40:05 Biocentrism & ecocentrism

• Ginsburg & Jablonka’s Evolution of the Sensitive Soul
• 3 modes of being: life; sensitive; rational. Different ways of mattering morally

44:30 Wild animal suffering

• How important is freedom and “natural” behaviour to animal welfare
• Welfare biology
• We shouldn’t be naive about experiences in the wild but we shouldn’t exaggerate their suffering either. More science needed
• Suffering matters even if we didn’t cause it
• Tractability, complexity and unintended consequences are serious issues but they’re not an excuse for turning away
• Genetic engineering, fencing, wildlife corridors, contraception… or “kill them all”
• Marc Bekoff and Compassionate conservation
• It’s interesting how animals (including humans!) can be removed from moral consideration just by putting them in a category

54:46 Human ethics

• Sentientism rejects intra-human discrimination too
• Philosophical pluralism and the importance of moral considerability
• Understanding the harm/experience is separate from deciding what to do

58:14 Animal farming & fishing

• Human taste preference & social norms vs. severe physical pain & death

1:00:10 The Future

• Nearly all people on the planet disagree with Sentientism
• Cognitive vs. emotional morality
• Social conditioning and norms. Indoctrination. Social contagion
• #JustTransition (e.g. Rancher Advocacy Programme, MfA’s Transfarmation). Understanding animal farmers
• Potential common re: ending factory farming
• “Humane” slaughter & human toddler farming!
• Sentience enhancement & transhumanism

Sentientism is “Evidence, reason & compassion for all sentient beings.” More at Sentientism.info. Join Heather on our “I’m a Sentientist” wall using this simple sign-up form.

​Everyone interested, Sentientist or not, is welcome in our groups. Our biggest so far is here on FaceBook.

Thanks Graham for the post-prod. Follow him @cgbessellieu.