Watch our Sentientism Conversation on the Sentientism YouTube here and listen on the Sentientism Podcast here.

Noella Williams is a Brooklyn-based freelance culture writer whose writing has appeared in Marie Claire, Teen Vogue, the Washington Post, Vox and elsewhere. Noella’s reporting ranges from Black culture to queer identity to intersectional veganism, internet culture, and more. She describes herself as a “journalist, vegan foodie, pokemon trainer, dj, and abolitionist.” One of her most recent pieces, for Vox, was “I’m a Black vegan. Why don’t you see more of us?”

In Sentientist Conversations we talk about the most important questions: “what’s real?”, “who matters?” and “how can we make a better future?”

Sentientism answers those questions with “evidence, reason & compassion for all sentient beings.” In addition to the YouTube and Spotify above the audio is on our Podcast here on Apple & here on all the other platforms.

00:00 Clips!

00:57 Welcome

– Noella’s Vox article: https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/363464/black-veganism-community-diversity-race

– Marina Bolotnikova episode: https://youtu.be/Ou1kyzGP1fk

– Sentientism merch & mug: https://www.redbubble.com/people/sentientism/ 🙂

03:40 Noella’s Intro

– Florida to New York

– 5 year vegan “a big part of my life… a huge lifestyle change… how veganism has changed me… also been reflected in my writing”

– Writing on Black / Queer culture, music, politics, food, home & lifestyle, video games, veganism “whatever interests me”

– Birdwatching and catching Pokemon 🙂

06:10 What’s Real?

– Growing up in the Florida Bible Belt

– Black Baptist Church on Sundays and Wednesdays

– Christian school from kindergarten to 8th grade

– “Huge involvement in church… school… choir… everything had it’s basis in Christianity”

– Both parents religious “they’re both Caribbeans”

– “I am not religious any more”

– Agnostic since a year after graduating high school “that also coincided with me going vegan and realising I was queer”

– Christianity: “It was what I knew and breathed and slept with… that was everything I knew as a kid”

– “I started questioning things more at high school… perhaps middle school”

– Being asked to sign a very strict pledge at school: “No secular music… drugs… alcohol… this is kind of wild”

– “The misogyny in biblical texts was on my mind a lot… religious figures like a pastor… use the bible as a text to justify… a wife submitting to a husband”

– “The homophobia eventually came along… a lot of biblical stuff is very ‘man and woman'”

– “Things were written by different prophets and… I can’t generalise the Bible as a whole but… there’s a little bit of irony here… how different these things being said are…”

– “Maybe this isn’t something I should use to guide my life let alone my moral compass”

– “My father has a rule that… as long as I was in his house I have to go to church Wednesdays/Sundays”

– Talking to other Black atheists / agnostics with similar experiences “forms of religious trauma”

– “I was forced to go to church – probably resulted in why I don’t really like going to church”

– “If I could go back… I would love to be a theology major… I love gospel music”

– “Do I think there could be more things out there? I don’t think that’s really something I’m too concerned about at the moment.”

– “I call the universe or earth… using she/her pronouns… she is guiding me with her stars… that feels a little more comfortable for me… than… this father figure.”

– “It would be crazy if I was an atheist but loved Greek mythology… they don’t exist but there’s a part of my that loves escapism and fantasy”

– “I would love to learn more about African spirituality… gods in other countries and cultures… I want to learn less about Christianity”

– “I think the religious trauma and upbringing makes me interested in other cultures and countries, gods, goddesses… compared to Christianity”

– JW: Naturalistic spirituality without spirits vs. spirituality with actual spirits and mysticism and magic

– “I have grown up consuming so much vampire lore… all of me wishes that vampires… werewolves… were real… so much interest in the supernatural… whether it’s real?”

– “African deities… voodoo and hoodoo… I 100% belief in witchcraft… channelling their ancestors… passing down this wisdom through potions and spells…”

– “I don’t know how I feel about ghosts… I can believe people when they feel a spirit lingering on… an old house… a cemetery… an interesting part of the world where there’s a lot of history… maybe trauma.”

– “I don’t think I have enough expertise to either shut someone down when they’re feeling that and invalidate them or to also fully, wholeheartedly believe them…”

–  “I’m glad that you feel like you can connect with the earth that way and the supernatural… I’m a little jealous”

– “I love escapism and sci-fi and fantasy”

– Astrology and being a Pisces “on my to be red pile… learning more… I definitely believe there is some truth to astrology… who you are… as it relates to the stars and the water and the universe and when you were born”

24:00 What Matters?

– Being taught good and bad “the way they were taught to any child…” re: Breaking rules, showing kindness, politeness, hospitality

– Seeing differences in norms when moving to New York from the south

– “It felt good to be a nice person and it didn’t feel good to hurt somebody’s feelings.”

– “Also rooted in biblical texts… god loves they neighbour so you should also… Jesus broke bread and shared”

– Mutual aid

– “Through bible school… being kind is a trait that Christians have.”

– “A lot of it is obedience… my parents always pulled the ‘disobedience is worse than witchcraft’… bible verse… just more religious trauma”

– “You learn in the Bible… being obedient to your parents… to authoritative figures”

– Honesty, the golden rule

– The importance of manners and politeness and kindness in the American south

– “Even though I don’t follow god’s word any more and I’m no longer a Christian… I’m still a kind person”

– “I pray on the downfall of my governor all of the time… DeSantis… he’s ruined so much of Florida… in their eyes I don’t want to be seen as a good person”

– “I don’t think goodness and kindness should be extended to people who are actively harming marginalised groups… animals… there are a lot of bad people in the world”

31:40 Who Matters?

– The journey to veganism “I had two vegan friends in high school… they were phenomenal influences in me going vegan”

– Taking a public speaking class at community college. Watching the documentary “What the Health”… “They’re kinda making some points…”

– Talking to people of colour about veganism “in what is seen as such a white demographic”… food culture… their family challenges

– “I don’t think at first I went vegan for the animals… a lot about health… and then animal activism and advocacy came along the way”

– Particular health problems in Black communities “seeing my dad have high blood pressure”… heart disease

– “The moral aspects came in… I want to learn more… sanctuaries… animal activist groups… zoos… Blackfish documentary”

– A meat-centric diet growing up in a Jamaican, Caribbean household “I never stopped to think”

– Being fascinated by animals as a child “I loved learning”

– Dad bringing dogs home from the pound or the local animal shelter

– First true companion – a cat, in 2021 “learned a lot about responsibility… how to talk about an animal who is living in your home vs. ownership”

– Learning the importance of language and how it affects how we think about non-human animals

– Many transitions at once (veganism, leaving Christianity, coming out as queer)… “a lot of them were tied to each other… coming in to my Black identity…”

– “I do love that I grew up in a Black church… learning kindness… a good thing about church… but I harboured so much anger and resentment towards church… this has been the first year I’ve been like ‘I’m actually so grateful… play music… church choir… developed relationships with friends and family’…”

– Coming out as queer while in a heterosexual relationship

– Going vegan and being questioned by people and learning about healthy vegan diets (iron, B12…)

– “A very small city where there’s not a lot of options… it forced me to cook a lot and become a lot more responsible with my health”

– “I’m happy I chose journalism… express my thoughts and emotions… channelling all these things I was going through… learn how to write about them”

– “Developing personality… liking my alone time… how I view myself… how I feel perceived by other people… it was rough at the time… I’m glad I can explain them more today”

– “I’ve written a lot about… ostracised from barbecues, reunions, cook-outs, family dinners… a lot of it isn’t fun… how can I change this?… offering to bring… eating before… inviting friends and family and loved ones to vegan restaurants… good food”

– “I’ve crafted my own way of getting around the social awkwardness of being vegan… being more vocal about what I’ve learned”

– Close vegan friends: “How the dietary change… into the lifestyle thing… that has revolutionised their personal politics – the way they move about their lives”

– “Having conversations more openly about how removing animal products from my diet has mentally made me feel better… like I’ve developed a moral compass”

– Exploring links from veganism / animal ethics to environmentalism, food politics and food justice

– Finding groups like PETA and those focused more on BIPOC people e.g. Apex Advocacy “Aligned with animal advocacy but not letting that be the stop of their advocacy”… environmentalism…

– Farm worker exploitation: “A lot of vegans… are not aligning that with their politics and their justice… the intersectionality of veganism”

– “How are you also not focused on the people?… I can’t place my blame on the people that are employed at these corporations… they have to… that’s the only job they have… including them in the liberation for animals is also important”

–  “Tyson workers… they have gone through so much… the pandemic… getting sick… accidents”

– “As a vegan… how is this going to be affecting farm workers?”

– “Just because I’m a vegan doesn’t mean I’m 100% saving the earth and there is nothing individually that I can’t do or learn about or speak out on”

– Racism, sexism, classism, homophobia – “all of it – it’s still involved in all of these things”

50:49 A Better Future?

– Meeting the Apex Advocacy team at Black Veg Fest in New York “I’d just incredible what their foundation is doing… I wish there were more non-profits in the world like them… Also focusing on human liberation and just collective liberation for all regardless of race, gender, class, where you come from… that’s how it should be… we can’t just limit animal advocacy to non-human animals.”

– “At the end of the day I blame the corporations and the CEOs for these things [e.g. factory farming]”

– “Collective abolition for all… how it’s tied to abolition… prison abolition… justice for people who are incarcerated… locked up for petty crimes or things there could be restorative justice for… in this perfect utopia…”

– Afrofuturism, Octavia Butler, Janelle Monáe’s “Dirty Computer”

– “Whether it is… ending factory farming but still figuring out how Native Americans… indigenous people… can still consume animals like they historically have and not feeling like… veganism is setting down who and what can consume animals… getting off the pedestal… feeling like there is this perfect way to live… policing how others live… there is no vegan that should be telling indigenous people what do to with animals… it needs to come from meeting people where they are.”

– “Ending factory farming might not end animal consumption… the start of where we could be… I don’t know exactly what a perfect world could look like because there may be groups of marginalised people I’m not thinking of… a perfect and better world… for disabled people… children… older people… that’s the beauty of knowing other organisers… talking to people”

– Young people not knowing older people that live near them “Damn I really need to talk to my neighbours more… community is all we have”

– “Meeting people where they are – with education”… books, pamphlets, documentaries, conversations

– “Share my ‘gospel’ of how veganism has changed my perspective on the world”

– “Interacting with others with an open mind is a good start… hearing people out… being able to listen to their concerns…”

– Creativity and experimentation with vegan foods “the incredible things they do with vegetables!”

– “There’s a lot of misconception about how important meat and dairy is in your diet – I had to learn about that and unlearn it”

– Risks of food poisoning, zoonotic disease

– “People are interested in veganism”

– JW: The associations between far-right politics and animal product consumption “Bible, bullets, beef”… “a marker of far-right identity” and the colonialist land-hunger of animal agriculture

– “We were kind of surprised that more leftists… aren’t vegan or vegetarian” and potential links to those on the left sceptical of masking / vaccines to protect communities from COVID

– Bringing non-human animals into politics

– Collaborating with other movements

– “If I’m an animal activist and I’m begging someone… a politician who is taking away reproductive freedoms from women and people who can have children or choose not to… I don’t think I’m going to be begging them for animal rights… there’s not a point… you have to collaborate with people that are looking to better the world… hoping for more liberation for humans… you also have to introduce them to why liberation for non-human animals… is wrapped up in the politics of what you’re fighting for anyways.”

– Optimism vs. doomerism “I’m somewhere in the middle”

– Problems in regional news, climate, America’s politics, Palestine “I don’t think that there’s the brightest vision for what’s next”

– “As an individual there’s only so much we can do and those little actions do make you feel better… showing kindness to others… showing kindness to non-human animals… trying out veganism… treating them like they are a living being… taking that with you.. if this is how I can slowly change my thinking maybe I can do that with politics… climate… environmentalism… food justice”

– “There’s a pipeline I had from going vegan to changing my politics… I’m so grateful for it… I don’t even know who I’d be if it weren’t for that”

01:18:05 Follow Noella

– NoellaWilliams.com

– Noella’s Vox Article

– Noella’s Links on Campsite

– @yonoella
– Noella on Insta

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Thanks to Graham for the post-production and to Tarabella and Denise for helping to fund this episode via our Sentientism Patreon. You can also help us via a Ko-Fi donation or by picking out some Sentientism merch on Redbubble.